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[Zoltrix]

Hi all,

Apologies in advance if this is a silly question.

I recently used clrmamepro to build a MAME 0.235 non-merged romset.

I used the following sets to build this romset:
0.235 romset merged
0.232 romset non-merged
Updated roms between 0.234-0.235
Updated roms between 0.232-0.233

I thought the more sources it had to pull from the better chance at building the set, but could of course be wrong.

I also unselected the option to "Separate BIOS sets", as I was under the impression this would include the BIOS file in each rom created so it could run standalone?

After creating the romset, I then did a scan and got the following results, in the attachment, which seems to indicate everything appears ok (minus a few missing sets).

I then ran the romset through LaunchBox to create a smaller set and remove games that don't work, etc.

But when I attempt to run some of the games in MAME 0.235, it advises of missing BIOS files (the example shown in the attachment is "19xx.zip")?

[Roman]

I highly doubt that you get missing bios files messages with 19xx, since it does not use any bios at all. And the shown error does not refer to bios files.

Unmerged sets, even with turned off bios set separation does not create standalone sets. Why? Because there are also devices. Most sets use devices (besides possible existing bios and parent references), too.

For 19xx for example it's this:
      <device_ref name="m68000"/>
      <device_ref name="timer"/>
      <device_ref name="z80"/>
      <device_ref name="93c46_16"/>
      <device_ref name="screen"/>
      <device_ref name="gfxdecode"/>
      <device_ref name="palette"/>
      <device_ref name="speaker"/>
      <device_ref name="speaker"/>
      <device_ref name="qsound_hle"/>

where at least "qsound_hle" requires an additional rom.

So, your assumption is wrong that you can create/scan standalone sets (at the moment).

[Zoltrix]

Sorry, man face palm myself. I read that message as missing BIOS even though it indicates nothing about a BIOS.

So maybe you have answered my question regarding standalone sets. Does that mean you need multiple separate files for something like 19xx to work correctly? Which means in a front end like emulation station, you'll see the same game listed multiple times (for a non-merged set)?

[Roman]

If you want standalone sets, you need the set and add the referenced device roms to it. At the moment you have to do this manually. Then you have 1 file with all required files.

"Which means in a front end like emulation station, you'll see the same game listed multiple times" ...well...that sounds weird since you only have 19xx and 1 separated device set (if not included)...so why should it list 19xx multiple times...sounds like a malfunction to me....

Normally frontends work fine with unmerged, fullmerged or split sets (the most common method to store MAME sets in my opinion), so there shouldn't be problem to have the devices in separate archives. But then again....why not keep BIOS sets also separated :-)....and finally...why not directly use split or full merged sets.

But don't mix: playability in an emulator, visibility in a frontend and set-audit results in a tool....3 different things.

[Zoltrix]

So... I was using merged sets until recently via LaunchBox/BigBox and no issues. I've started to test Recalbox and Batocera, as they are a lot faster and lightweight when compared to running a full Windows setup on my arcade machine.

I read on the Batocera wiki (https://wiki.batocera.org/arcade) that, "Non-merged (a.k.a. reference set): All ROMs can be used standalone because each zip contains all the files needed to run that game, including any files from 'parent ROMs'.", and it seemed to indicate that non-merged sets are preferred (no idea why?). So that is why I went down the non-merged rabbit hole.

When I refer to the same game being scanned in multiple times, you can see in the first attachment I copied over the versions of 19xx that were created by clrmame, then did a scan in Recalbox and now have multiple versions. I know they are in theory different versions of the same game, but I would prefer just one version if at all possible.

[Roman]

So your prefered frontend shows clones and the parent set with one and the same name?
And it doesn't even use the full descriptive name which the MAME -listxml gives...well...go and send your complain to the frontend author
Nobody forces you to copy all clones over to your frontend machine....if you're happy with just 1 19xx set fine, copy that....but remember, the set requires the qsound_hle device to run correctly. So either integrate that in your 19xx set or keep it standalone (that standalone device won't make 19xx appear multiple times)

[Zoltrix]

So in theory, where should the non-merged set be referencing the qsound_hle file from?

[Roman]

From the "qsound_hle" set (which is a device set)

<machine name="qsound_hle" sourcefile="src/devices/sound/qsoundhle.cpp" isdevice="yes" runnable="no">
<description>QSound (HLE)</description>
<rom name="dl-1425.bin" size="24576" crc="d6cf5ef5" sha1="555f50fe5cdf127619da7d854c03f4a244a0c501" region="dsp" offset="0"/>
<sound channels="0"/>
</machine>

[Zoltrix]

Should clrmame have created the "qsound_hle.zip" and "qsound.zip" files (which contain "dl-1425.bin") when I created the non-merged set?

[Roman]

well...depends on what you did...
"when I created the non-merged set"...can mean anything...

If such sets are part of the used dat not disabled...
...then you either scanned your sets... -> so they are either ok or are listed as missing/with errors
...or you rebuilt them...then -in case they were valid- are created in the rebuilder destination

[Zoltrix]

Thanks for all the info.

One last question (I hope), can I scan a set of files and have it only report on what's missing to make those sets/roms working? As mentioned above, using LaunchBox to create a romset that removes certain categories (gambling, adult, etc) has also removed key files that are also required.

The set I have now is around 2,000 roms, and I'd prefer just to check those ones, if possible?

[Roman]

scanner -> scan results tree window ->  set-information (lower left button)

There you can limit your sets manually, by a file set list, by regular expressions / variables in select sets and so on....

[Zoltrix]

Hello again

When building a non-merged set with clrmamepro should device files be placed in the zip? I think based on conversations in this thread, maybe no?

The reason I ask is that I have a 0.242 non-merged set that I downloaded in full (didn't use clrmamepro to create), and it contains the "dl-1425.bin" in the "19xx.zip".

Whereas the 0.235 non-merged set I created with clrmamepro does not.

If the file is included in a full non-merged set, should clrmamepro be doing the same when creating a non-merged set?

[Roman]

dl-1425.bin is the qsound device rom so it belongs to the qsound set.
Don't compare MAME versions against other versions. Things do change frequently. Devices become separated which may be included in earlier versions. And again: non-merged is not standalone, devices are not included.

A MAME -listxml output gives you all information about all sets.

[Zoltrix]

mamedev.org states:

"A non-merged set is one that contains absolutely everything necessary for a given game to run in one ZIP file. This is ordinarily very space-inefficient, but is a good way to go if you want to have very few sets and want everything self-contained and easy to work with. We do not recommend this for most users."

It then goes onto say:

"Secondly, the device set. Frequently the arcade manufacturers would reuse pieces of their designs multiple times in order to save on costs and time. Some of these smaller circuits would reappear in later boards that had minimal common ground with the previous boards that used the circuit, so you couldn't just have them share the circuit/ROM data through a normal parent/clone relationship. Instead, these re-used designs and ROM data are categorized as a Device, with the data stored as a Device set. For instance, Namco used the Namco 51xx custom I/O chip to handle the joystick and DIP switches for Galaga and other games, and as such you'll also need the NAMCO51.ZIP device set as well as any needed for the game."

So I guess contradicts itself?

Is there a list of device sets? That way I guess you could just add those in to ensure you have what you need?

I just can't fathom that you can't create a standalone set, even though so much info suggests you can...

[Roman]

As mentioned before: mame -listxml has all information you need.

MAME exists since 1997, things changed over time, bios sets were introduced decades ago, devices decades later on. MAME and all frontends I know of work perfectly fine with split or full merged sets, so there is no real need to spend so much time on unmerged/standalone/whatever sets. The majority prefers a more compact representation. Why repeating thousands of bios and device roms over and over again.

It's not that hard to generate a standalone set.
Unmerged + disabled separate bios sets is a basis, then add the device roms manually.

And yes, there is a chance someday in the future that there might be something which resolves the deviceref dependencies.

I fully agree that the unmerged mode itself is totally useless, a standalone mode would make more sense.